“The main problem with the BMI is not that it sometimes thinks thin people are fat. The main problem with the BMI is that trans people who exceed a certain BMI can't get life saving, gender affirming care. The main problem with the BMI is that there are surgeons who will not operate on fat people and require them to lose hundreds of pounds before they can access X, Y, or Z surgical procedure that they desperately need. But magically, they absolutely can manage surgery when it's weight loss surgery.”

You're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fat phobia, parenting and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

I recorded this intro like six times because they got way too gushy every time, but today I am so excited to be talking to Aubrey Gordon. If you don't know Aubrey, she is the co-host of the Maintenance Phase podcast. She is also the author of what What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat and her brand new book, which is out this week. Run, don’t walk, to get "You Just Need to Lose Weight" And 19 Other Myths about Fat People.

I'm going to let us get right into it because Aubrey is awesome and this conversation is a total delight. So here's Aubrey!

PS. If you missed Aubrey’s last Burnt Toast episode, you can catch up here.

Episode 76 Transcript

Virginia

Okay. So I am looking at your childhood scale. 

Aubrey

Yeah, you sure are. 

Virginia

What is happening.

Aubrey

So I am in Los Angeles. I come down here for a good chunk of time at the end of each year. Since I started freelancing, I was like, I would like to spend more time with my family. So I do. And the one place that I can record while I'm down here—which is a big part of my job, recording audio. 

Virginia

It is.

Aubrey

You know, it's Los Angeles! It's the second largest city in the country, hard to find a truly silent place. So, I'm inside my mother's closet, which just works on a number of levels, yes? And one of the things that she stores in her closet is the scale that we had in my childhood. It's one of those, like, if you went to a doctor's office in the 70’s, maybe? 

Virginia

It's not a small digital scale. It's tall. It has the weights that slide back and forth. It's a full-on doctor's office scale.

Aubrey

Your journalistic integrity is really shining through here. 

Virginia

This was the scale your family had in your house?

Aubrey

Uh huh, absolutely. 

Virginia

I also have the question of why do we still own the scale? 

Aubrey

I don't know. She's told me she only uses it like a few times a year. She's a person who doesn't like things to go to waste.

Virginia

Yeah, and what do you do with that scale if you want to get rid of that? Like, how do you not waste it?

Aubrey,

Totally. And also, at this point, not only does she have not a lot of people looking for scales at this particular moment, but not a lot of people looking for big, heavy, loud scales from 50 years ago.

Virginia

It would be hard to give away, even on the freecycle page.

Aubrey

I was telling her she should take it to a scrap metal place. Or to an artist of some kind, like a welder could do some interesting things? I don't think any of that's gonna happen.

Virginia

No, I think it’s gonna stay in the closet there and you're going to see it every year.

Aubrey

It's the greatest icebreaker to every interview I have.

Virginia

It's very off brand and somehow on brand, also.

Aubrey

Yes, it is the absolute nexus of things I stand against and things I spend all of my time on. 

Virginia

And stand next to, while doing your work. 

Aubrey

But not stand on anymore!

Virginia

Yeah, not anymore. 

Aubrey

I was like, I get to show this to Virginia today and that feels like a win to me. What a treat.

Virginia

So how are you doing? You are a couple of weeks out from book launch. How are you feeling? How's it going?

Aubrey

I mean, you know. Anytime you make a big thing and then there's like a year between when you make it and when people get to experience it, that's a year of always feeling a little bit like you're about to barf, you know? Just a tiny bit. Just always a low grade barf energy. So, I'm in the thick of that. I'm at the crescendo part of the barf energy.

Virginia

That makes sense. 

Aubrey

But also, it's fine and great. And I get to talk to a bunch of fun people who I like talking to and it gives me an excuse to do that. How about you? You're how many months out now?

Virginia

It's the end of April. So I haven't reached peak nausea. But low-level-constant-background-noise-hum barf, sure. I'm getting second pass back this week, which I think is the last time I get eyes on it. But it's the week before getting we're going on a big trip for the holidays so I'm completely not in work mode. I'm trying to pack my kids up for this big trip and I have to read the book again. And I don't want to read it again. That phase where I can't look at it anymore. But also, what if I don't look at it enough and then something terrible goes in?

Aubrey

Even if you look at it seven times, you're gonna catch something at some point and feel bad about it. Because it's forever now.

Virginia

I don't pick up my first book anymore. Because I know if I pick it up, I will find something and just be like, why didn't we catch that? You can't look back at it at a certain point.

Aubrey

That's really smart of you.

Virginia

The whole pre-book-launch is a very weird phase. It's this liminal state you're in. But I'm so excited for you, because you're close to it being out, it being a thing.

Aubrey

It's happening. It's happening at this point. Whether I'm barfing or not, it's happening.

Virginia

With me barfing along for the ride! 

Aubrey

And you, too! I'm so excited! The front end of this week for me is a ton of interviews and the back end of this week is spending a couple days with your new book. I'm over the moon about it. I'm so excited.

Virginia

You’re the best. I felt awful even asking, you have so much going on. 

Aubrey

Listen, this is one of those things where I'm like this needs to be out in the world. This is the kind of thing that the world very desperately needs right now. As an elder millennial child of a boomer, most of my peers who have kids at this point are in this space of being acutely aware that their upbringing around bodies was fucked.

Virginia

It was a hot mess.

Aubrey

It was bad news. And they're like, “So it can't be that. But also, I don't know what else to do.”

Virginia

Exactly, exactly. 

Aubrey

I feel like this is like gift of a set of tools. That's my hope. And sort of like an analysis for folks to go. You're not just rejecting one lens, right? You're applying a new one. Here's the new one. 

Virginia

Once you start to see diet culture, once you start to name anti-fat bias, especially when it comes to kids, you now want to protect them from it. And that can lead to this all or nothing thinking that feels very familiar. People are like, “how do I get the schools to stop this? What media can my kid watch that won't be fatphobic?” And I'm like, “Are you just not going to show them a cartoon?” So, it's really about how do we give kids these tools, too? How do we normalize these conversations? How do we change the language in our household so fat is just a word that we're using all the time and not this loaded concept. Because we can't put them in these bubbles and be perfect in our anti-fatness, if that makes sense.

Aubrey

I kind of feel like everything we do in the system that we're currently in and the culture that we're currently in is just some measure of harm reduction, right? So it’s thinking about things through that lens and not through the lens of, “I'm going to somehow create a perfect bubble in which my kids will not be exposed to any of the like harmful forces that exist out in the world.” Because that is not reasonable. I feel like most parents I know, on most fronts, have gotten there. Just figured out we're in a messy worl